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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Figures I'll make this thread to help others out on which choice they want to make. Also, if any i30N guys are curious too, point them to this thread.

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So pretty much, one is at a fixed position and the other one is adjustable. One is also taller than the other, which I will get into later. Something I didn't know from the pictures on Whiteline's website are the studs. It requires a 6mm allen to screw in the studs into the tops. Something worth mentioning in case others were also wondering about it. Both of these are meant for the left side of the car. Drivers side if you have a VN or battery side if you have a RHD i30N.

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I loosened and adjusted the Forge as straight as possible to mimic both of them to have the same amount of camber. If the dashes are at all accurate on the Forge, you can get about -0.2 to -0.4 more degrees out of them compared to the Whitelines. BUT as you can see on the Whitelines, it pushes the top of the strut further back, giving you more caster than the Forge. This is where both the VN and i30N become different. With the VN, the inner stud points towards the center of the firewall whereas the i30N points at eachother. This allows the VN to gain a little caster from the Forge mounts while the i30Ns cannot gain caster at all. I think if you max out the Forge mounts, you can get out to -3.0 camber but have heard some rubbing issues may occur. Camber/caster is unknown right now for the Whiteline mounts but the claim is adding another -1.0 camber and 1.0 caster to your current setup.

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OK, so I've heard from multiple people about the Forge mounts raising the front of the car up. Decided to do some measurements and see that the Forge sits about 5/8" to 3/4" taller than the Whiteline (16mm to 19mm).

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One thing I was hearing from the other forum was the lack of instructions from Forge. Someone kept blaming shops and/or individuals on a bad installation and that's why their front end sat higher than before. Which also mentions a lack of instructions to begin with. Even checking Forge's website today, there isn't an instruction manual available. Whiteline DOES come with instructions so for those that are not very wrench savvy can follow it. Otherwise, I've done many lowering spring installs on multiple kinds of cars (especially on MacPherson struts) and I don't see how a shop can screw this install up. To me, if you've been wrenching for years, this shouldn't be a hard install at all. As long as you have the proper tools, you're good to go.

Conclusion
How I came about both of these kits, well. I ordered the Forge first, having full intensions of using it. Then heard the complaints of ride height gain and even rubbing. Decided that since Whiteline is still having their Black Friday sale, I might as well jump on it now. For suspension parts, I can at least trust Whiteline to thoroughly test fit their products to make sure everything works as intended before buying. As for which set I'm going to be using, it's going to be the Whitelines. While camber is one thing, that big caster gain over the Forge is going to be beneficial for me and my needs out of the car.

Hopefully, this thread can help you guys decide which of the 2 you guys want to get for your needs. I'm not going to bash one or the other as both companies here have made a quality product for our cars. Although I can hear you guys say "Why should we use these when the VN has the ability to use camber bolts". Well, to me, I'm planning on running a 275 wide tire. So yeah, camber bolts will make these tires rub against the strut. And then there's people out there that just flat out have no trust in these bolts as they've had bad experiences with them loosening/moving while driving.
 

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Awesome post comparison. Thank you for sharing.

With the Whiteline units being fixed, what are your expectations with respect to negative camber and caster?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Awesome post comparison. Thank you for sharing.

With the Whiteline units being fixed, what are your expectations with respect to negative camber and caster?
I'd say at least -2 camber and least 6.5 caster if the claims are true. But still have to gather a few more parts before the install before we find out.
 

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Thank you for the response. I did some checking last night, and the white line website lists -1° extra for both camber and caster. Hopefully you get more than that.

By the way, have you had trouble with camber bolts loosening up? I am by no means a track veteran, but I have done a few HPDE and autocross events, and have not had any issues, though I only had summer tires on, and not R compound.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you for the response. I did some checking last night, and the white line website lists -1° extra for both camber and caster. Hopefully you get more than that.

By the way, have you had trouble with camber bolts loosening up? I am by no means a track veteran, but I have done a few HPDE and autocross events, and have not had any issues, though I only had summer tires on, and not R compound.
I personally never had issues with camber bolts in previous cars but I know a few folks that have. Albeit they were running both top and bottom knuckle bolts, which I would never suggest. You should be fine with just camber bolts. Unless you're crazy like me and another guy as we going to experiment with 275/35/18 200TW tires on this car.

You could run the Whiteline plates AND bolts no ?
You can but for running a 275 wide tire with a +45 offset wheel? Not really. My old setup of 265 and +50 were already really close to the strut and I'm talking can't even squeeze a finger in between them.

Although I've heard from folks that setup suspension for racecars that running camber bolts with camber top hats will mess the suspension geometry up but don't quote me on that as I don't know the exact reason why it would.
 

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You can but for running a 275 wide tire with a +45 offset wheel? Not really. My old setup of 265 and +50 were already really close to the strut and I'm talking can't even squeeze a finger in between them.

Although I've heard from folks that setup suspension for racecars that running camber bolts with camber top hats will mess the suspension geometry up but don't quote me on that as I don't know the exact reason why it would.
Right. Just looking for options for when I get my car. Was considering something like 18x9 +45-50 with 255/35R18 fronts, and 18x8 +45-50 with 225/40R18 rears. For the track obviously.
 

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Thanks for the side by side comparison. I too want to be able to run wider fronts eventually and have been considering the Whiteline static plates. Just curious, do the Whitelines include some form of bushing around the spherical bearing? And how is the spherical bearing retained, just a retaining ring I presume?

The Forge units raising ride height is a non-starter for me, even if it were just by 5mm nevermind 16-19mm, that's huge.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Right. Just looking for options for when I get my car. Was considering something like 18x9 +45-50 with 255/35R18 fronts, and 18x8 +45-50 with 225/40R18 rears. For the track obviously.
I wouldn't do bigger tires up front if you're planning on tracking. Reason being is the rear end will get loose on high speed sweeper turns. Here's a friend of mine tracking at BIR. At 0:35, it gets sketchy. And his setup is 235/40/18 RE-71Rs with 18x8 +50. Rest of the car is completely stock. If you said autox, I'd say go for it. I just wouldn't do this type of staggered setup on track with this car. He also slapped on the stock wheels and tires same day and he said he had a lot more confidence to push the car more.

Thanks for the side by side comparison. I too want to be able to run wider fronts eventually and have been considering the Whiteline static plates. Just curious, do the Whitelines include some form of bushing around the spherical bearing? And how is the spherical bearing retained, just a retaining ring I presume?

The Forge units raising ride height is a non-starter for me, even if it were just by 5mm nevermind 16-19mm, that's huge.
Nope, no bushings around the spherical. The spherical bearing is pressed into the top plate and then secured by a circlip.

And with the Forge tops, they even compress the spring by 16mm-19mm too. I thought if the Forges compresses the springs a little bit, it would end up even. But I'm guessing that even if you pre-compress the spring and set the car on the ground, the spring would end up the same length as if everything was left OEM due to the spring rate. You would have to compress the spring by quite a bit to have it sit the same as OEM height.
 

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I wouldn't do bigger tires up front if you're planning on tracking. Reason being is the rear end will get loose on high speed sweeper turns. Here's a friend of mine tracking at BIR. At 0:35, it gets sketchy. And his setup is 235/40/18 RE-71Rs with 18x8 +50. Rest of the car is completely stock. If you said autox, I'd say go for it. I just wouldn't do this type of staggered setup on track with this car. He also slapped on the stock wheels and tires same day and he said he had a lot more confidence to push the car more.
Cold rears will do that, and his entry phase was pretty bad as well which made it worse ! I can see a fair bit of push here and there which should get ironed out with a staggered setup. I dont think it'll be that bad honestly, it's still a street car and not set-up super edgy. 225s on the rear also mean they'll have a bit easier time to get up to temp, which will make it more predictable, as well as hold a bit better on a 8" on turn in. And I dont mind some loose in the end, not my first rodeo :)
 

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Cold rears will do that, and his entry phase was pretty bad as well which made it worse ! I can see a fair bit of push here and there which should get ironed out with a staggered setup. I dont think it'll be that bad honestly, it's still a street car and not set-up super edgy. 225s on the rear also mean they'll have a bit easier time to get up to temp, which will make it more predictable, as well as hold a bit better on a 8" on turn in. And I dont mind some loose in the end, not my first rodeo :)
Keep us updated on how it works! I did a 2 day track event over Labor Day. I ran the same size on all 4 corners (255x35x18) stickyHoosier race tires (although the fronts were R7 and the backs A7). Another caveat was high daily temps were around 100 degrees. The car handled great. Rotated well and the backend never broke lose. The backs really didn’t heat up much (pressure built up only in the front tires).

 

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Keep us updated on how it works! I did a 2 day track event over Labor Day. I ran the same size on all 4 corners (255x35x18) stickyHoosier race tires (although the fronts were R7 and the backs A7). Another caveat was high daily temps were around 100 degrees. The car handled great. Rotated well and the backend never broke lose. The backs really didn’t heat up much (pressure built up only in the front tires).

I will and will post onboards ! Winter here now tho and I only get the car around April-May lol.

As for your experience there, well, A7s are way stickier than their R7 cousins, so not breaking loose doesnt surprise me, especially since they're made to work good cold (autocross). The fact that they havent warmed up much at all tells me all I need to know about running 255s at the back :p
 

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I will and will post onboards ! Winter here now tho and I only get the car around April-May lol.

As for your experience there, well, A7s are way stickier than their R7 cousins, so not breaking loose doesnt surprise me, especially since they're made to work good cold (autocross). The fact that they havent warmed up much at all tells me all I need to know about running 255s at the back :p
I’ll be interested to hear whether even a narrower rear tire will build up temperature. The back tires really don’t carry much weight. I was watching Herta’s cars in the TCR class races. They only ever change out the fronts.
 

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I’ll be interested to hear whether even a narrower rear tire will build up temperature. The back tires really don’t carry much weight. I was watching Herta’s cars in the TCR class races. They only ever change out the fronts.
I’ll be interested to hear whether even a narrower rear tire will build up temperature. The back tires really don’t carry much weight. I was watching Herta’s cars in the TCR class races. They only ever change out the fronts.
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What are the rim specs and have you done any other suspension mods
They are Enkei 8.5x18 TS10s with +50 mm offset. So suspension mods. I don’t have any rubbing .... HOWEVER another guy on the forum with the same wheels and same size tires says he has some rubbing. Neither of us had any alignment done.
 

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Figures I'll make this thread to help others out on which choice they want to make. Also, if any i30N guys are curious too, point them to this thread.

View attachment 3860 View attachment 3862
So pretty much, one is at a fixed position and the other one is adjustable. One is also taller than the other, which I will get into later. Something I didn't know from the pictures on Whiteline's website are the studs. It requires a 6mm allen to screw in the studs into the tops. Something worth mentioning in case others were also wondering about it. Both of these are meant for the left side of the car. Drivers side if you have a VN or battery side if you have a RHD i30N.

View attachment 3863 View attachment 3865
I loosened and adjusted the Forge as straight as possible to mimic both of them to have the same amount of camber. If the dashes are at all accurate on the Forge, you can get about -0.2 to -0.4 more degrees out of them compared to the Whitelines. BUT as you can see on the Whitelines, it pushes the top of the strut further back, giving you more caster than the Forge. This is where both the VN and i30N become different. With the VN, the inner stud points towards the center of the firewall whereas the i30N points at each other. This allows the VN to gain a little caster from the Forge mounts while the i30Ns cannot gain caster at all. I think if you max out the Forge mounts, you can get out to -3.0 camber but have heard some rubbing issues may occur. Camber/caster is unknown right now for the Whiteline mounts but the claim is adding another -1.0 camber and 1.0 caster to your current setup.

View attachment 3866
OK, so I've heard from multiple people about the Forge mounts raising the front of the car up. Decided to do some measurements and see that the Forge sits about 5/8" to 3/4" taller than the Whiteline (16mm to 19mm).

View attachment 3867
One thing I was hearing from the other forum was the lack of instructions from Forge. Someone kept blaming shops and/or individuals on a bad installation and that's why their front end sat higher than before. Which also mentions a lack of instructions to begin with. Even checking Forge's website today, there isn't an instruction manual available. Whiteline DOES come with instructions so for those that are not very wrench savvy can follow it. Otherwise, I've done many lowering spring installs on multiple kinds of cars (especially on MacPherson struts) and I don't see how a shop can screw this install up. To me, if you've been wrenching for years, this shouldn't be a hard install at all. As long as you have the proper tools, you're good to go.

Conclusion
How I came about both of these kits, well. I ordered the Forge first, having full intensions of using it. Then heard the complaints of ride height gain and even rubbing. Decided that since Whiteline is still having their Black Friday sale, I might as well jump on it now. For suspension parts, I can at least trust Whiteline to thoroughly test fit their products to make sure everything works as intended before buying. As for which set I'm going to be using, it's going to be the Whitelines. While camber is one thing, that big caster gain over the Forge is going to be beneficial for me and my needs out of the car.

Hopefully, this thread can help you guys decide which of the 2 you guys want to get for your needs. I'm not going to bash one or the other as both companies here have made a quality product for our cars. Although I can hear you guys say "Why should we use these when the VN has the ability to use camber bolts". Well, to me, I'm planning on running a 275 wide tire. So yeah, camber bolts will make these tires rub against the strut. And then there's people out there that just flat out have no trust in these bolts as they've had bad experiences with them loosening/moving while driving.
There is only "8mm lift" with the VN and the Forge Motorsport Adjustable Top Mounts along with -2 and +1.5 degrees camber, no matter what you do. The Whiteline Top Mounts will give you only -1 degree of camber and the caster is negligible. Your measurements are incorrect, along with the information you're passing along to others. Just to set the record straight.

Did you re-utilize the strut bearings, upper spring pads with either setup?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
There is only "8mm lift" with the VN and the Forge Motorsport Adjustable Top Mounts along with -2 and +1.5 degrees camber, no matter what you do. The Whiteline Top Mounts will give you only -1 degree of camber and the caster is negligible. Your measurements are incorrect, along with the information you're passing along to others. Just to set the record straight.

Did you re-utilize the strut bearings, upper spring pads with either setup?
I already know who you are and I'm not going to argue with you back and forth so this will be my only reply to you.

-8mm is .3", which is still quite a bit for me since I'm planning on running stock springs. I don't even want a .1" increase.
-From the people that are running the Forge, they are able to get -2.2 and -2.5 without even maxing it out. One of those guys maxed it out on the alignment rack to see where it would end up and it was -3. Maybe Forge revised their top hats? Who knows. I bought my set after they installed theirs.
-Whiteline claims an added -1 camber and 1 caster but who knows. Would like to see pics of the Whitelines only giving -1 camber. For now, I can only provide a picture of it sitting on top of the OEM strut top. Keep in mind, I'm at -1 camber right now with OEM everything. Blue line is where the center of the OEM strut is and red is just the center of the Whitelines.
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-Caster is quite relatable as it gives you dynamic camber gain on steering angles. The more caster, the more dynamic camber gain you get.
-My measurements are just comparing the bottom of the top hats and not really on ride height. I only mentioned others having ride height gain with these.
-I don't know how you claim my information is incorrect when you're saying things like "caster is negligible" when it's actually quite relatable with dynamic camber. You're even telling people that -1 camber is enough when I managed to cord a pair of fresh RE-71Rs running AT -1. Just look at the tire. Inside tread looks like it was never even touched. Did only 4 autox events with them with one of the events being having a 2nd driver with me.
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-It's winter so no suspension modding until March when I get my new wheel and tire setup. For now, I'm just collecting parts. And no, I won't be getting new bearings or pads as I don't see a point. Even the Whiteline instructions say to re-use them if they are in good condition.

Wish you the best of luck on this new account and hope you don't become too toxic like on your last account that got banned.
 

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There's no argument, I'm not here for that. Just a pointed discussion full of factual, useful information. The comments provided are to vague and lack specifics to justify the reasoning.

Doesn't look like you've installed or utilized the Forge Motorsport or Whiteline Top Mounts at any point so far. If you haven't utilized both in a direct comparison, the information provided is inaccurate and at best second hand information, along with is perceive to be true.

The information I'm providing is; factually based from my own hands on experience and direct confirmed R & D feedback from the tech departments of both companies. I happen to work with one of the companies R & D directly.
Wish you the best of luck on this new account and hope you don't become too toxic like on your last account that got banned.
RedVN is my account and I've not had another one. Just to set the record straight. We're working on the primary email address with the admin, so that I can sign into that account again. I used a masked email address originally that no longer exists, due to technical difficulties from the providing company. If you'll check RedVN, you'll see my account hasn't been banned, as you are commenting. I challenge you to check directly with @Ghost, if you have any personal doubts. (Note; my account has been fixed, as I previously stated.)
I don't know how you claim my information is incorrect when you're saying things like "caster is negligible" when it's actually quite relatable with dynamic camber.
The caster gained is negligible, because the White Lines are oneway top mounts, not two or three way adjustable. The Whiteline Top Mounts are set up specifically for the i30N steering geometry, weight and ride height, not the VN's. The part numbers are the same for both, so there are going to be differences that will need to be addressed in steering geometry for the VN.
You're even telling people that -1 camber is enough when I managed to cord a pair of fresh RE-71Rs running AT -1. Just look at the tire. Inside tread looks like it was never even touched. Did only 4 autox events with them with one of the events being having a 2nd driver with me.
So going further with negative camber, will only cause more increased uneven wear without any benefit. So, no more than -1 degree is required with this particular setup. Fairly obvious.

What was the camber setting you utilized in these photos and how was it attained, if changed from OEM specification? Was the suspension setup and steering geometry, derived from a suspension geometry jig? How specifically was the geometry changed? What was changed; fore and aft to accommodate the increase in negative camber?


What's shown in the tire photos has less to do with the dynamic camber angle and more to do with the actual body roll under compression. However, static camber needs to be setup correctly from the start. Multilink suspensions, will increase/decrease static camber angles under suspension compression/unloading along with the amount of body roll. The more body roll, the more negative camber to one side or the other depending upon the turn in. Are the the OEM sway bars and setup still being utilized? Has adjustable end links and/or heavier sway bars been installed fore and aft? If they have been replaced with aftermarket units, what were the setting utilized to negate any increase in body roll?

I'll ask again; Were the the strut bearings, upper spring pads with either top mount setup reutilized? Avoiding the questions, is a sure sign of combativeness. I don't need lessons or lectures from internet websites. I'm fully aware of how a suspension works and needs to be setup for track or competition use. Been there done that for a very long time.
And no, I won't be getting new bearings or pads (future tense) as I don't see a point. Even the Whiteline instructions say to re-use them if they are in good condition.
This ^ is a partial answer. Did you install the Forge Motorsport or Whiteline Top Mounts, reutilizing the strut bearing and upper spring pads?


The comments above are a pretty good indication; neither have been installed. So, there no first hand knowledge with either top mount for the VN.

I'm going to continue to avoid any side track comments and ask pertinent questions regarding your specific setup.

In Review;

1. Neither top mounts have been installed at this point.

2. The static camber wasn't determined or set correctly with your initial setup. Most likely the OEM steering geometry has not been adjusted at all.
3. If camber bolts were utilized, the optimal camber setting and toe in for the chassis, was not determined and setup correctly.
4. Looking at the wear across the contact patch in the photos you've posted, there was a bit more than a -1 degree of camber utilized. Maybe closer to -1.50 to -1.75 utilized.
5. So going further with negative camber, will only cause more increased uneven wear. without any benefit. So, no more than -1 degree is required with this particular setup.
6. Indications and photos suggest the tires weren't properly heat cycled in the beginning for competition use.
Also keeping in mind, we've haven't discussed tire pressure yet.

Is this ^ a fair statement? If it's not, then simply provide the accurate information.

With the installation of either top mount, there will be quite a bit more a NVH and road noise. Be prepared, even with the Whiteline reinstall of the strut bearing and spring pads.
 
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