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autox setup for SCCA street category - DS

64K views 197 replies 33 participants last post by  CARBON 3 
#1 ·
I thought I would start a thread for street category setup as we figure out what works with these cars. More questions than answers at this point - will update over time.


Wheels/tires
========
Stock offset is +55, so we can use +48, +50, or +55. At stock wheel widths, clearance shouldn't be an issue. For diameter, 18's will be cheaper, lighter and should be available in designs that clear the calipers. Max speed in 2nd gear at stock diameter is 60mph, so there could be courses where a shorter wheel/tire would cause additional shifting.

There are options for tire brand with the Bridgestone RE71 being a standard and popular choice. If has a strong sidewall which is good for the FWD platform. The BFG Rival is another popular choice. It is said to be a little more forgiving and may be more heat tolerant (two drivers).

Another choice is to use a square or reverse stagger setup. Rotation and wear are considerations - buy two or four at a time? I ran a reverse stagger setup on my GTI, and the rear tires lasted more than twice as long as the fronts (very limited front camber and a hack driver). Another reason I like the stagger setup is temperature balance. If the fronts come up to temp too much faster than the rears, balance may suffer.

Tire width and sidewall height are other possible variables. Wider is usually better, depending on the tire, but too wide can have detrimental side effects and be difficult to mount. If I was buying tires today, I would probably go with RE71 sized either...
Front 255/35-18, Rear 225/40-18 or
Front 255/40-18, Rear 225/45-18
depending on desired max speed (about +- 2% from stock)

Tire pressures...

Bars
===
(more detail needed)
VN uses a smaller front bar than regular Vs. What rear bars are available, and how much bigger (adjustable)? Any advantage to using larger front bar? Depending on static camber and dynamic camber gain, a bigger front bar may be an option. Both tire stagger and bar choices mostly impact front/rear balance. What does the VN need?

Alignment
=======
Are camber bolts in the FSM, and what range is available? What camber delta to use front/rear? Is caster adjustable? Standard zero toe all around?

Shocks
=====
- Electronic programming legal and available?
- thoughts on different modes for different course smoothness, and weather.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Hi George. Good to see another sandbox member on here (we've been messaging about wheels.)


I'm somewhat worried about gearing on this car and for me I think I'm going to run 245/40-18's for now. Both RE71 and Rival S 1.5 available in this size. Not sure which I will pick at this time. I was also looking at the 265/35-18 which is closer to the OEM diameter but that might be pushing it on an 8" wheel.

Too bad they didn't put something closer to a +50 offset on this car. I would open up a lot more options for wheel choice in the street class. I'm not real fond of the style options in the allowable offset range but that's personal opinion.


Not sure about the bar. If in N mode it rotates like the Fiesta but with more body control it may not need much.


Camber bolts would be nice. Hopefully they thought of us. Going to run it as is and see how it behaves, then check and adjust toe as needed.


Going to be a tough run in DS though...
 
#4 ·
Agreed on the 265/35s being a bit of a stretch on an 8 inch rim, although it should be possible.

Good catch on the slight tire diameter difference between the PP and non-PPs. It is only a few millimeters difference, but it would be interesting to know if they adjusted the springs between the two to keep the ride height the same.

On the sway bar, it may not be a slam dunk which one to upgrade, front or rear. Sometimes a FWD strut car does better with a front bar, especially if it is camber limited under roll. Supporting the case for the front bar is that the LSD should deal with any traction concerns. On an open differential FWD car the bigger rear bar can help with forward traction. The VN gets a smaller front bar than the regular V. There is a limit to how much a rear bar can work depending on droop travel. Once the inside rear is off the ground, it has done all it can. There are short videos on the Hyundai N page where this is shown, although part of it is the crown of the road.

24 sec in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=24&v=0Dqy0Xg8jnE

12 sec in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=24&v=0Dqy0Xg8jnE

That doesn't mean that a rear bar won't be a useful upgrade. Every FWD or AWD car that I've owned for autox unloaded and lifted the inside rear frequently, except the GTI. The Fiesta ST would rotate nicely on three wheels. The rear bar may also be adjustable which can be useful.

For me, if we get decent camber, I'll probably start with the rear bar assuming that the overall balance is reasonable. The rear bar is generally much easier to swap.
 
#8 ·
No they don't.

For me, if we get decent camber, I'll probably start with the rear bar assuming that the overall balance is reasonable. The rear bar is generally much easier to swap.
There's only one rear sway bar available for the N at this time and it's adjustable. Maybe, you'd better start consider purchasing an N first, as everything up to this point, is moot. Bench racing can be fun but non-productive as well, considering it's all speculation.

Just out of curiosity, when are any of you actually going to pay to play? Otherwise, when are you actually going to purchase one? You know there are only 200 total coming into the states!

Blessings and Peace
 
#11 ·
Does anyone have the OEM part number for those camber/repair bolts? I know an engineer talked with GRM about it but I'm having a hard time finding part numbers for it. Even the parts guy at the dealership couldn't find me the part number.

As for auto-x, I'd say just keep it stock for now. I know there's a guy in Houston, TX auto-xing this car stock with just 245/40/18 71Rs and his last SCCA event, he placed 10th PAX out of 137. I think he kept it in N mode too so traction wasn't fully off. For being a completely stock car with just tires, it moves pretty good. I know the 10th gen Civic Si guys in GS run the rears all the way up to 50 psi and fronts as low as 27 psi while running 255 on 8" wide wheels. Just IMO, 255/40/18 squared and messing with just the PSI is probably all this car needs.
 
#14 ·
If you can believe the Hyundai website, there already are more than 200 available just counting 250 mile areas of LA, Chicago, and New York. And that is what is available right now. I know at least 3 have been sold in the Chicago area that are not counted because the dealer I bought mine from has none. That is counting both "standard" and "performance" models.
 
#15 ·
A bit off topic, but this thread is dead anyway. None of these individuals are buying or have intentions to buy in actuality. Just a bunch of bench racers, dreaming.:wink:

No, I can't believe it. Hyundai has a propensity for lying. Read the latest on the engine-gate debacle they were caught in just recently.

The N w/PP is not available in these numbers. There are approximately 345 total, listed for sale, of both standard and w/PP. Less than half listed are w/PP. There is no way, there has been 200+ Veloster N's w/PP have been sold. Some of these greedy dealers, are attempting to sell them at $37K+ LMAO. Just as an example;

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/new/s...ortType=PRICE&sortDirection=ASC#resultsPage=1

https://carbuzz.com/news/hyundai-assures-us-the-veloster-n-won-t-be-limited-production

I have the first sold; N/PP in this state. There is only one more available in the Blue for the whole allotment. It's listed online @ $29,885 but it's marked up with a Hyundai Dealers Fair Market Value Price of over $32K

[quote An inside source told us the Veloster N would be limited to just 1,000 units[/QUOTE] This is world wide, not just in the US. This also includes both the standard and w/PP versions.

$29,000 for the N Performance Package, we knew Hyundai was going to have a hit on its hands. There was just one issue we feared - greedy dealership markups.
jcr557 (Banned) The Hyundai car salesman from PA, who was illegally utilizing this website to sell Veloster N's, was lying his arse off. The dealership sold the Veloster N for MSRP alright, but didn't tell you the final delivery price of $32K+ w/TTL and that wasn't including shipping to your location. Typical car salesman tactics. "Tell you what you want to hear, to get you interested, then lower the boom."

It's all out in the open to see. Most dealers are just marking up the Veloster N, either standard or w/PP. Wait till the Performance Package models disappear. You'll see the standards going for over $30K+ easily.

Blessings and Peace
 
#16 · (Edited)
A bit off topic, but this thread is dead anyway. None of these individuals are buying or have intentions to buy in actuality. Just a bunch of bench racers, dreaming.:wink:
Autox season has started in the southern states as noted above. Here's a link to that event results.

Pax Time Results

We've still dealing with snow up here in western NY. Our first autox event isn't until mid-April. I'll have more info to share later.

Let's keep this thread focused on autox street class info please.
 
#19 ·
The first event in western NY was last weekend, but I didn't go, 40 degrees and raining. Our next event is at the end of the month.

I also went with the 255-40/18 71Rs, at least for the start of the season. I might try a staggered setup later in the year. I installed the SXTH bar a couple of weeks ago. It is pretty beefy and I didn't want to go with the stagger setup until I'm sure that the balance needs it.

I can't wait to get the season started!
 
#21 ·
The first event in western NY was last weekend, but I didn't go, 40 degrees and raining. Our next event is at the end of the month.

I also went with the 255-40/18 71Rs, at least for the start of the season. I might try a staggered setup later in the year. I installed the SXTH bar a couple of weeks ago. It is pretty beefy and I didn't want to go with the stagger setup until I'm sure that the balance needs it.

I can't wait to get the season started!

Why did you go with such a large diameter tire?


Ready to pull the trigger on 245/40-18 RE71's unless gearing seems to be an issue. Won't be able to autocross mine until May though.
 
#24 ·
I usually go for the widest, and then shortest tire that will fit comfortably on the stock width rim (-1 diameter) for stock class rules. The reasoning would be slightly better acceleration from shorter gearing and also the shorter/stiffer sidewall improving the tire response characteristics. In this case, I went the other way as Piro Fyre noted to get a little taller second gear. The sidewall on the RE71 is stiff enough that is should still be very responsive. All of these options are close enough that they won't matter much. The good thing with the taller sidewall is that they should be a little easier to mount/flip, and the shop that does my tires won't hide when they see me coming.
 
#25 ·
Second gear is shorter than what I am used to for sure. I notice that just driving around on the street. How do the sidewalls of the 255 look on an 8" wheel?


I'm also sort of delaying the purchase to see where the A-052 Yoks stand compared to the Rival and RE71.
 
#26 ·
#27 ·
#28 ·
Autocrossed mine on Saturday. Completely stock. 10 runs total between myself and co-driver. Very easy to drive at the limit and lots of useable power. Feels like a better/bigger Fiesta ST and, in my opinion, less numb and heavy than a Focus ST. Car is seems capable but needs real tires. May run it stock once more on a different course but I think I am going with 255/35/18.


My prediction is the Focus RS will give it a run for its money, not sure about the WRX.
 
#29 ·
First event of the season yesterday. Low 40s most of the day on a lot that is bumpy and always dirty. It was also wet for morning runs. So low grip conditions for sure. Course was mostly big offsets and sweepers, no slaloms or big power pulls. I didn't get any data or video capture. Here's my initial impressions...

Launch control - I only used it once with lowered revs, and didn't like the way it felt as the car was fighting against itself. It was much smoother to just break the front wheels loose and manage the wheelspin.

Shocks - this is a bumpy lot and in the highest setting there was too much skating.

front/rear balance - with the bigger bar the rear was very willing to rotate. With the low grip surface there was some big slides. For the most part the car would let you stay on power and counter steer a little to catch. It wasn't tidy, but it was fun. Some of the looseness in the rear could have been from getting into the pebbles off-line. Given the conditions, I didn't try traction control fully off. I heard that I was tri-poding a lot, which is fine although it may be an indication that the rear bar is too stiff - I'll wait to see pictures.

headroom - I'm 6'5" and with my helmet on I'm touching the headliner. I didn't notice it on course. I did remove the driver side grab handle to stop the helmet banging.

Next three weeks are a mini-roadcourse autox, then a test-n-tune at our regular big site, then the national tour that we're hosting.

Overall the VN seems like it is going to be a fun autox ride.
 
#31 ·
The lot I was on was fairly smooth clean worn asphalt. Temps were near 60 degrees but it was very windy so nothing really retained heat. Lot was a little wavy in places but overall very nice. Sport + suspension was too stiff so I ended up running N custom with all things N minus the suspension on Sport and ESC off. Sport+ suspension was just too much for the OEM tires available grip on this surface. Car would throttle rotate well with the slightly softer suspension and was very easy to drive fast. I did not try left foot braking.


I will probably run it once more with the stock tires but will see what kind of camber I can get out of the front before that.
 
#32 · (Edited)
I added a few more pics to the thread showing the fitment of the 255-40/18 RE71s.

https://www.velostern.com/forum/121-wheels-tires/297-stock-wheels-tires-measured-against-re71rs-enkei-ts-10s.html

I also did a very rough stock alignment check. Front toe was pretty close to zero. Rear has a little toe-in. There is a little front camber, but given that this was a very rough estimate, I didn't bother to do the math. Here's a pic that shows that there is some camber. I'm still waiting to see if we get camber bolts before messing with alignment. The gray metal yardstick shown in the pic should be pretty close to a vertical edge.

And again as a rough estimate, rear track is a little under a half inch wider than the front,

 
#33 ·
Second autox with the VN today. This event was at Pineview Run south of Syracuse. https://pineviewrun.com/ This is a fairly new mini-road course club setup with cone elements in the straights to keep speeds manageable. They don't have the top coat of pavement down yet so the curbs stick up an inch or two. Cones are placed to keep us off the curbs. The result is a fast flowing course with lots of extreme elevation changes and variable camber. Morning runs were in the 50s and gray, light rain for the afternoon.

Full N mode - with the smooth surface, I tried the shocks full on as well as dialed back a notch. No issues running in full N mode. The short slalom sections were gobbled up by the shocks in full N.

ESC on - Given the lack of runoff room and slippery conditions, I didn't fully disable the stability control. It was not intrusive, and helpful when needed. Most impressive was the control in the bigger sweepers with drop throttle tucking the nose and tightening the line. Getting right back on the gas you could feel the LSD pulling thru the outside wheel. Trust in this chassis comes quickly.

Tire rubbing - none at this event that I'm aware of. I haven't pulled the wheels yet, but I did have the fender edges taped to detect any rubbing and the tape was intact. The smooth pavement may have helped, but there are some sections with higher camber loading that I expected to rub.

Soft limiter and rev matching - The last acceleration zone hit the limiter more quickly than I expected. There was no issue with riding the limiter for a couple of seconds. Grabbing third is also an easy choice as there is no fear with the following downshift thanks to the smooth rev matching. The VN really does use its electronic aides to make life easier for mediocre drivers (like me).

Launch control - I tried it once in the wet just to see what it would happen. Let's just say that mechanical sympathy means I won't be repeating that experiment.

Results - I'm not a fan of sharing results from any specific event just because there are so many variables that can be a factor. Also, I'm way too slow to be a good benchmark. I will say that I ran almost exactly the same layout at this facility last fall in better weather conditions in my GTI that I was very familiar and comfortable with. The VN was a full second faster on a 65 second course. I also managed to run even with a well driven Focus RS competitor, even when it got wet.

Two weeks until the Finger Lakes National tour. There are currently 13 competitors in DS using various platforms including CTR, EVO, RS, GolfR and even a Camaro 4cyl 1LE. It's going to be a blast!

Vids from today


 
#34 ·
Good driving and I'm going to have to steal your camera placement there as that angle is perfect for what I want.

Finally got to test out the car on the 71Rs this past weekend. This thing is a rocket! Took until the last few runs of day 2 to get some ballpark tire pressures that I like to have. I can feel it definitely needs a bar now with these tires but I'm holding off on a bar and going to do more wheel time on the car itself. Went up against a Type-R that got moved into a different class (because of a CBE and a rear bar, which are SCCA Street class legal but the organizers that ran that event that day didn't like those mods) and I was just under 2 sec behind him. I mean this guy placed 2nd at NATS last year in F Street with a Camaro SS. He's a **** good driver that I'm looking forward to compare myself with this year being my 2nd year autoxing.

Another person came up to me and said my car was just flat going around. Like it's flat when I was braking, flat in the corners and flat on accel. I had the suspension setting set to Sport+ so it could be the active dampeners doing their thing. It's a fast car and looks to be a pretty good contender in DS.

This is my last and best run I've had with the car this past weekend.
 
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